La Nación "Religion loses strength when it gets involved in politics"

Today we speak with one of the most verbose pastors with the greatest capacity for expression in Paraguay. Pastor Emilio Agüero Esgaib talks with Mike Silvero (MS) for another edition of this special called "An atheist in search of faith", a program that is broadcast on Saturdays at 9:00 p.m. on the GEN channel.

– Mike Silvero (MS): Pastor, in your opinion why do you think people believe in a God?

– Well, there are many answers to that. From philosophical, biological and theological answers. Broadly speaking, the human being naturally believes in a superior being, in something transcendent, that is even explained by science, that there is like a chip in our brain that encourages us to believe in someone, in something that is above us. and that at the same time gives us a transcendence for our life. For a spiritual or theological issue, the Bible says that God created us all. So it is something very striking that throughout the world, regardless of culture, money, education, we all have something like brothers, which is, we are religious by nature, that is, we naturally believe in something. Some time ago I was visited by a Dutchman who came for a North American university, he told me that he had clear studies that Europe was not atheist, that he is algist. What's that? who believe in something. They may not believe in the God of Christianity, in the Judeo-Christian God, but they believe in Reiki, they believe in some deity...

– MS: In some spirituality..

– They are looking for a spirituality and Europeans cannot live without a spirituality even if you don't think so. So that showed me that ultimately we all seek something from God.

– MS: And those of us who are not looking for the chip, did it fail?

– No, I don't think so, now I don't remember who it was who said, I'm tired of atheists who only talk about God. I believe that atheists are also looking for him, some may not believe, but they do not believe for two reasons: one may be for intellectual reasons, in which they say that they cannot conceive the idea of ​​such a good God in a world so bad and so much pain, that's the intellectual part. But Robert Charles Sproul, a former atheist who later became a Christian theologian, said that man's biggest problem with not believing in God, at least in the US and Europe, where he mostly lived, was moral and not intellectual. That believing in God would imply that they leave a lifestyle that they liked.

– MS: Don't you think it can also come from the metaphor about the shepherd and the flock, so one says, I don't know if I want to be a flock and that's why I stay away?

– It is that if we are going to speak theologically, the flock concept is exactly why it is mocked by atheists. Because the concept of flock and shepherd is precisely one of dependency. God, Jehovah my shepherd and I will lack nothing says Psalm 23, and all human beings are flocks of the great shepherd who is Christ, then what is the sheep? If you look at it, it is a clumsy animal, it is a very dependent animal, it has no defense weapon, it is an animal that cannot walk alone, it has to walk in a herd. And all of these are spiritual principles. We human beings are clumsy, we cannot walk alone without our God taking care of us.

– MS: But it is better to be a shepherd than to be a flock.

– No, I think it is better to be a flock than to be a shepherd. Because being a pastor is very complicated.

– MS: Why, pastor?

– Because you are always in the crosshairs. You are such a sinful person and you have a huge load on you, because I am not better than anyone, I am tied to the same weaknesses as everyone else. So I would prefer to be herd, why would I lie to you.

– MS: Is it evangelism or is it evangelicalism? And the other, why more people opting for that branch of Christianity?

-He is called an evangelical. Because sometimes people call you the evangelist. And evangelical is because we preach the gospel. We come from the Protestant reform that started back in 1616 with Luther's reform, which has an exciting history. And there are more people now because I believe that the evangelical church has given an answer without speaking ill of anyone. Catholicism, by its very system of faith and belief, is very systematic, in the sense that it has many rituals in a mass. It lasts 45 minutes, let's always say it's the same, for a doctrinal issue of theirs. The message itself lasts very little, five or ten minutes. But in the evangelical church, the message lasts for hours. Explain the word. And I believe that he has had the ability to bring the Bible down to people's day-to-day lives.

– MS: In other words, the narrative is different and is more adapted to these times.

- I think so. And I speak, for example, of a mass. And there I speak of Catholicism because it is the majority religion, right? you go with your family and it's very good. But families also come here, but the children have their classrooms, so the children are, according to their age, learning the Bible and the adults are calmer focusing.

– MS: In other words, the children don't get bored like we used to get bored at church.

– And it could be. Of course because if it is a message for adults, most likely a child will be bored. That is the human part, true, but I believe that the evangelical church with all its miseries too, because we are full of problems, has known how to bring the Bible down to date and explain it in a deeper way. But the fact that the influence and the evangelical church in Latin America has grown a lot is like that, notice that a country like Guatemala is practically no longer considered a Catholic country, but rather an evangelical country, because it is already reaching more than 50% of people who identifies with the evangelical church, and Brazil, which is the most Catholic country in Latin America, is at the same time the one with the most evangelicals in Latin America.

– MS: Being a religious man, is it possible that there is a God other than the one you believe in?

– Look, philosophically then it can't be like that. Because if there is a God, two gods are not needed. If there is a God, the very concept of God is all-powerful, omnipotent, omniscient. Also doctrinally and theologically because our faith is that there is only one God. Now if there are two or three gods, to tell you for example, Islam that believes in Allah, or Christianity believes in Jehovah or the God of Israel, then one does not have to be God.

– MS: What does God mean to you?

– God is the creator of all things, the one who is sufficient in himself, the one who has no beginning or end, the one who can only exist without needing anything or anyone. He created the human being in his sovereignty knowing that he was going to fail and through that error of sin, and of the life we ​​lead, he would propitiate a salvation for man through Christ, who died on the cross of Calvary. And he is restoring his own creation that he in his own sovereignty knew would fail.

– MS: If faith is a gift and the gift is given to me by God, if I don't have faith, how do I find it, reconvert myself, how is this process carried out?

- Very good question. Sometimes the atheist person tells you that he rejects the word mystery. Because the mystery is like a theme that opens up, there is like a range of things. But the word mystery is very reasonable. If God knows everything and can take in an infinity of information, I am totally limited to understanding everything he wants, just as a three-year-old child will not understand many things from you. For example, an atheist person comes and tells me, tell me a little about your imaginary friend. So the atheist who is arrogant, I'm not saying that all atheists are arrogant, but there are others who are honestly atheists and they tell you "pastor, I don't believe in God, but I want to know him if he exists" and you see an opening. But the majority, and atheists don't take offense at me, but it's the truth.

– MS: And if they get offended, it's their problem.

– They speak with arrogance, with petulance, with irony, with ridicule, then it is as it once happened: A preacher was speaking in the ports, in London in the 19th century, preaching about God and an atheist stood up and shouted “where is God , where is God, I don't see him” and so the preacher who was speaking harassed him. Until the preacher gets tired and tells you, of course you're not going to see God because Jesus said: “The pure in heart will see God” that is, confronting his ridicule and his arrogance. And I think someone can honestly be an atheist, and I respect that, but at least most of the people I know, and that includes me too, are proud.

– MS: How does that search fit between faith and science?

– Well, there are many believers who believe in evolution. Francis Collins, the father of the human genome, is an evangelical believer. Then you have William Lane Craig, who is one of the strongest philosophers in the world who debates the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. He, for example, has evolutionary positions on some issues. That is very broad. I have my positions and some do not fit with science. Christ died on the cross to atone for your sins. If you humbly approach him and ask him to reveal himself to your life, he will do it. The same question of atheism is that of the old testament. The answers are there. Now that one wants to accept them is something else.

– MS: To what extent is the Bible interpretable for you or is it a word that cannot be discussed?

– Of course, if God spoke, there is nothing to discuss. Now there is the hermeneutics, the exegesis, the basic biblical rules of interpretation that a person may have. Some say, but Christianity has thousands of religions and yes, there are many religions, including Catholicism, but on the most fundamental issues our faith can assure you that it is quite strong. Logically, like all books, it has its interpretations, but there are too transcendental and clear issues that religions have as a whole.

– MS: What do I gain if I convert?

– The eternal salvation of your soul. The Lord says that when we die we will all be in a trial and in that trial we will not be able to save ourselves if we have not deposited our sign. And there is an eternal damnation and an eternal salvation. What you gain the most and the most important thing even if you lose your good on this earth tomorrow is the salvation of your soul that is eternal.

– MS: I'm not going to earn more money? Because last time I was told that for many, money is the God..

– And the love of money is the root of all evil.

– MS: I mean, is there a kind of negative love too?

- Of course. I want to play this on purpose. About this that one opens a church to earn money and things like that.

– MS: How does that work?

- I tell you. We and 99% of evangelical churches are supported by the voluntary contribution of their members. In each cult there is counseling, workshops, talks, visits, homes, nothing is charged. Only the offering that is collected on Sundays and the days of worship in the church. Logically, the largest church has more resources and the smaller ones have less. But 99% of the 2,600 pastoral couples in Paraguay, I'm going to give you 20 pastors who have a good time, include me in that group. I don't know a pastor who is rich, who has money like that, who is a businessman, not one. 90% are working people, masons, carpenters, people who work on the farm in the interior, part-time public employees and a very select group that had the blessing of being able to have resources to support themselves, who dedicate themselves full time to the work. The Bible tells us to live with dignity, the worker is worth living on his salary, but the Bible condemns greed, condemns the love of money, condemns manipulation and condemns everything that puts money above Christ. We are called to renounce everything for the love of Christ and thus we live.

– MS: In the case of the particularity of the tithe, is the same proportionality of what they have or enjoy some tax difference, so to speak, applied to those people of good standing?

– There are people who tithe and people who don't. The principle of tithing is a biblical principle, you may like it or not, but it is in the Bible. Now, I don't think someone should be forced to tithe because this is a matter of the heart. Paul made it clear that each one should give according to his own heart, as he has prospered. The one who won a lot, more. He who earned little, may he give what he can. We operate like this as a church. We pastors don't take vows of poverty, but now, I believe that pastors don't have to go around ostentatiously either. We have to live normally, naturally, wear normal clothes, not expensive clothes, jewelry, cars, I don't think I have to do that in any way.

– MS: Pastor, do you ever think about how his life would have been if he had not dedicated himself to God? Around there the destroyer continued, or became an MMA commentator, around there, because that became a business..

– He surpassed boxing in terms of resources. And the truth is that I saw myself more as a merchant. I loved trading. Since I was 19 years old I have had my first store in Pettirossi and I grew.

– MS: What would happen if there were no religions in the world?

– I did think about it and it would be a disaster. Fight everywhere, we were going to be Cerristas against Olympians, Colorados against Liberals.

– MS: But we are already a bit like that.

– This topic that religion divides is nonsense. Religion divides and divides football and divides because the problem is in the heart of man, it is not in religion. Religion is just another tool.

– MS: But along these lines, we must also understand the interpretation of historical facts, that religion has been used as a mechanism of control, oppression or even an attack on another belief.

- Totally. I agree 100%. I can't defend the indefensible, but that doesn't bother me. Because mine is not religion. Mine is relationship with God. Who is the true believer? That will not manipulate you. The true believer will not manipulate you. For example, a Pope who used religion in medieval times to expand his territory and conquest, and all the corruption, the sale of indulgence, or a pastor today who uses the manipulation of money to create an empire of his own, that it's your problem. It is not the problem of the true son of God nor of God. Because the true child of God will never do that.

– MS: A phrase by the Argentine writer Alejandro Dolina says that one always has to suspect oneself. Does that happen to you as a pastor?

- Totally. What a great word. It's that it's biblical. Do you know what King David said? search my heart, he said to the Lord. Analyze it, and see if there is iniquity in my way. And what the prophet Jeremiah said was “the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it”. When man lives without God he lives according to his desires, according to his instincts, and I believe that the world is like this because God is missing in the hearts of real people.

– MS: In the times when there was greater belief, were we better as humanity?

– Depends on what you mean by belief? what is belief, in what? I may be a Christian like most, but I went out on the street and asked other Christians if they know a Bible verse by heart, of the 31,000 that there are.

– MS: Difficult..

– So it's not, it's not. Now, if we are going to talk, they tell me Europe is atheist and is the first world, while Africa and South America, which are believing countries and are backward, have corruption, no. Europe is resting on the fruit of the reformers who raised Europe in 500 years, when it was nothing. Let's see Europe in 50 years. And no one is going to deny me this, today the West is experiencing an absolute moral decadence and I am convinced that in 50 more years, or sooner, if Christ does not come, Islam is going to control Europe and the United States. Because the Europeans threw down the wall of Christianity, of religion and of the faith that gave them everything they are now. In culture, in science, in education, in principles, and they decided to discard God. And the consequence can already be seen, the second most common name in England, the country par excellence of missionaries and great men of God, is Muhammad.

– MS: What is his concept of what comes after life?

– What the Bible says. I can't believe, I wasn't on the other side to say I already know what's out there. My faith is that when I die I will go into the presence of God and there I will be in his presence forever. I believe in eternal life, I believe that man does not die. That is my faith.

– MS: If you could choose 2 of the 10 commandments, what would they be?

– But you served me on a platter. Jesus was asked the same question and He said: You shall love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

– MS: What is worse for the evangelical church. An atheist, a Catholic or a Muslim?

– I do not consider atheists, Muslims or Catholics to be my enemies. I consider that they are people with whom we must speak, maturely, and we must put the word of God on the table. I have Muslim aunts, I have atheist relatives, they don't believe in God, I have Catholic relatives, I come from Catholicism and we coexist there. Because I have Arab ancestry. The most is to disagree, but that's normal.

– MS: If God is in everything, he knows everything, does free will exist?

– That is another tremendous topic. There are theological lines that deny free will and there are others that take it to the extreme, to the point of saying that we make all our decisions. I am in a balance theologically and I think it is the historical doctrine. On the one hand the sovereign God and on the other, the responsible man.

– MS: Do you enjoy talking with people who are not of your religion?

– It's what I like to do the most.

– MS: In my perception, religions are very concerned about people's sexuality.

– No, no, like we have something like phallocentric there, no. Speaking clearly no. Now the Bible talks a lot about sexuality because it is a very important part of being human. But religion doesn't care much about sexuality. What worries him is spiritual conversion and everything else falls apart. The one who cares a lot about sexuality is the world. Sexuality drives him crazy. Everything is sex. We already have 150 types of sex. There are no longer just men and women, which for me is like that, but anyway. So the church has to give an answer and has to speak. An entire book of the Bible is devoted to the romantic and sexual pleasure of men and women. Song of songs. Paul says that the man and the woman should not deny each other so as not to fall into temptation. Proverbs talks about enjoying human sexuality. Only by seeing that what the world practices today and the church teaches, we are forced by necessity, by the high rate of immorality that we live. We have to educate people about sexuality.

– MS: One being homosexual can not be looking for God?

- Yes of course.

– MS: And if he finds him, does he stop being homosexual?

– And yes, if he is the biblical God he will have to stop being homosexual because the homosexual lifestyle is incompatible with biblical morality.

– MS: Can religion, should or get into politics?

– No, I think that religion loses strength when it gets involved in politics. The separation of Church State is totally Protestant. Luther saw that this was one of the main problems that the Catholic Church had at that time and that it was corrupted because of that, because of the power that the popes had. What I want to ask you something. Are you an atheist, Mike?

– MS: I think that in the categories, I invented one. Atheist kaigue. I don't know if there is.

– Agnostic would be. I think there is no or capable. I am going to pray for you, because if I believe Mike, in salvation and tell you. You can believe me or not. You can get angry too. But I'm not going to be honest with myself if I don't tell you this. That you need God for the salvation of your soul. Mike, you and I are talking here about something.